Podcast Transcript
Hugh MacKay “The Kindness Revolution”
SPEAKERS
Nicole Abadee, Hugh Mackay
Nicole Abadee
Hello, I'm Nicole Abadee and I write about books for good weekend. Welcome to the Books, Books, Books podcast in which I interview the best writers from Australia and overseas about their latest book. Thank you for joining me. Before we begin, I would like to acknowledge the country where I live and work and from where I'm joining this conversation, the lands of the Gadigal people of the Eora nation. I pay my respects to their elders past and present to the elders of all communities and cultures across Australia, and to leaders of the future. You can listen to this podcast all of the episodes at nicoleabadee.com.au or subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. Today, I'm delighted to be here with Dr. Hugh Mackay, a psychologist, social researcher, and writer, on Books, Books, Books to discuss his latest book, "The Kindness Revolution," how we can restore hope, rebuild trust, and inspire optimism, published by Allen and Unwin. He was written 22 books, eight fiction and 14 nonfiction, including such well known books as "Australia Reimagined," "The Good Life" and "The Inner Self." He was a newspaper columnist for 25 years, and in recognition of over 60 years of pioneering work in social research. He has been awarded honorary doctorates by Charles Sturt, Macquarie, University of New South Wales, Western Sydney, and Wollongong Universities. He's a former deputy Chairman of the Australia Council, a former Chairman of Trustees of Sydney Grammar School, and he was the inaugural Chairman of the ACT government's Community Inclusion Board. In 2015, he was made an Officer of the Order of Australia, and he is currently an honorary professor in the Research School of Psychology at the Australian National University. Hugh, welcome back to Books, Books, Books, it's delightful to be able to speak to you again. Thank you very much, Nicole, it's a great pleasure to be back. I'm going to start by asking you, what is this latest book, "The Kindness Revolution," all about?
Hugh Mackay
It's all about what I regard as the human species' most precious asset, which is capacity for kindness, which is on display, most particularly whenever we face a crisis, or a catastrophe or disruption of some kind, either in our personal lives, or at the societal level, it's always there, ready to be activated. And really the core theme of the book is, couldn't we - as people in the past, so often have in response to a major catastrophe - Couldn't we use what we've learned, particularly from the pandemic and before it - the bushfires, we learned the same lesson every time - couldn't we internalize that lesson and generalize it? Couldn't we become the kind of people we are when we're dealing with something like the pandemic all the time? Why? Why do we - and some people do there are there are many saints among us who are perpetually kind - but it's part of the human struggle, that our beautiful innate capacity for kindness can be overshadowed by ego driven impulses, like ambition or competitiveness or acquisitiveness, all these things that get in the way of an open mind and kindness, compassion, etc. So so it is a struggle but when the going gets tough, our nobler nature's what Abraham Lincoln described as "the better angels of our nature," generally prevail. And I and I hope I'm not naive, and I think there's some comfort to be gained from studying the history of this but I just hope that this pandemic has been enough of a jolt enough of a circuit breaker to reverse some social trends which had been running strongly for the last 30 or 40 years, taking us away from our sense of interconnectedness and interdependence, and in the direction of a more rampant individualism, resulting in a more fragmented kind of society, a more competitive kind of society. Is this enough of a shock, to reverse that trend, and to remind us that, in fact, the deepest truth about ourselves has got nothing to do with our independence, even though we value that highly as well, but the deepest truth about us is that we share a common humanity and that ultimately, the species to say nothing of our local neighbourhood can only survive can only thrive. If we place our highest priority on mutual obligations on our on our, I think our strong moral and social obligation to respond to other people's deepest need, and we know what other people's deepest need is, because it's exactly the same as ours. Our deepest need is to be taken seriously.
Nicole Abadee
There's so much in this wonderful book to talk about. I want to start by asking you, you've been writing for many years about the golden rule, that we should treat others as we wish to be treated. In the good life, which was published in 2013. You write that a good life is a life lived for others. In Australia, reimagined published in 2018, you write about the Australia that you would like to live in. And one of the important elements of that, Australia is that kindness and compassion should be regarded as normal commonplace responses to the needs of others, not soft motivations, mainly associated with do gooders. I was wondering as I was reading this book, to what extent is it really the culmination of all of your writing and thinking over many years on the subject of kindness and compassion?
Hugh Mackay
That's a very fair question, Nicole. And I think the answer is that it is precisely that the book is Elena nonword. And when approached me with the idea for this book, and it's a curious blend of ultra contemporary heat, because I'm, I'm describing what's happening in Australia right now. But it's also got a long perspective. So I am drawing on themes from, from both from earlier books, but from my research more generally, over over many decades. So it's a kind of culmination is probably a good word, I can't imagine tackling any of these themes. Again, I feel now that with this book, I have kind of wrapped it up, there are still more novels to be written. But I think as far as social analysis is concerned, this really is about as much as I would want to say.
Nicole Abadee
So something else that interested me the immediate trigger for you writing this one was the onset of the COVID pandemic, and your observations of how we as Australians responded to it. And you make the point by and large, we did what we were told. And we thought about the common good, not just our own selfish wishes. I was wondering, do you think you still would have written this book if it hadn't been for the pandemic?
Hugh Mackay
I had been thinking over time kind of distillation book before the pandemic struck. So through 2019, I'd been thinking maybe there's one book left, which brings all of this together in some in a kind of overarching way, rather than being about particular things like previous books. And then when the bushfires occurred, I thought, actually, that's a really good catalyst for what I've been thinking of. So I actually did start work on the book before the pandemic. But then the pandemic turned Australia into a social science laboratory. So it was an irresistible reference point. And of course, the book is not about the pandemic, it's not about COVID-19, and how we dealt with it. It's about deeper themes than that. But that's a recurring little motif through the book, just to remind us that often, we need hardship. We need some kind of probation, some unexpected and often unwelcome disruption in our lives to help us clarify our values, order, our priorities, get us thinking straight about what really matters to us. And I think 2020 and now into 2021, has been an example of that on a very large scale.
Nicole Abadee
Here you write that during during the pandemic, and also during the dreadful season of the bushfires over 2019 and 2020. That we saw a lot of examples of people behaving more kinder to each other. Could you give us some examples of that?
Hugh Mackay
Yes, I think the most obvious manifestation of this was at the local neighbourhood level. Nicole, I believed for a long time and in some of those earlier books that you mentioned, that the local neighbourhood is a place to treasure, a place to engage with, because that's the place where we become truly civilized if we're ever going to be, because it requires us to get along with people we didn't choose to live amongst neighbours, are very different from family, neighbours are totally different from friends. The way we interact with neighbours has nothing to do with whether we like them or not. They are neighbours, and we are their neighbours. And I think the biggest I become better use the word thrilling, I think I will use the word thrilling, the most thrilling thing about the pandemic was all over Australia, these wonderful stories that surfaced about people rediscovering the significance of the local neighbourhood, people looking out for each other, in ways that they had not habitually been doing, suddenly, remembering that the old guy at the end of the street is pretty frail. And he probably needs a hand with the shopping or maybe I should be offering to mow his lawn or these sorts of things that you would hope would go on routinely and do in many wonderful neighbourhoods, particularly in regional communities. But even in major Metro suburbs, the rediscovery of the neighbour, I heard a couple of lovely stories that specifically illustrate this was one was about. It was two people I encountered in a webinar, but we were in a chat room, and they were both young fellows i'd say early 30's, and by coincidence, they both moved to new accommodation at the beginning of the lockdown, just before the lockdown, the beginning of the pandemic. And so then the national lockdown occurred. And they both responded in the same way. They both wrote little notes, saying I'm new to the street, I don't know anyone but here's my number, if you need a hand with anything, just give us a call. And I thought that I thought two things about that. First, I thought that just two ordinary blokes responding like that was absolutely lovely and reminded me of what a beautiful species this is to belong to. Because we can act like that, you know, they weren't saying I've looked you lot over and I think you probably vote the right way and I think you probably believe in the bodily resurrection of Jesus, so yes, I'll, I'll offer the help. But not at all. We don't, when we're acting kindly, we don't qualify the people we're being kind to, just in the letterbox I'll help. The other, the other story was from my grandmother in Melbourne, who said that early in the lockdown she and her daughter, and granddaughter, two year old granddaughter formed the habit of going to the local market and buying a bag of oranges each Saturday, and then putting the oranges in the two year olds toy pram, and marching up and down the street, offering an orange to everyone. And of course, everyone accepted. And what the grandmother described was a transformation in the life of that street. People just responding to a simple gesture of kindness like that became more aware of each other, not just the little kid, but more aware of the fact that this is a neighbourhood and we could we could make it function like a neighbourhood. It's, I think that's significant, particularly Nicole, because of the long history over the last three or four decades of my research, a very steady, growing theme, that people were mourning the loss of a sense of neighbourhood saying "I feel a bit like a stranger in my own street" in Sydney and Melbourne increasingly, even in Brisbane, people saying, "Oh, we don't know our neighbours," not saying it with pride or pleasure, but rather wistfully. But nevertheless, just accepting "Yeah," with a shrug "well we don't know our neighbours who knows their neighbours." We got our friends, we got our family. We've got our word colleagues, we've got our drinking mates, neighbours? Well, I think the big story of the pandemic was the rediscover rediscovery of the fact that we are all neighbours.
Nicole Abadee
And we're all in this together, as you say that that refrain that we were all singing to ourselves. We're all in this together.
Hugh Mackay
Yes, exactly. And including the really, just to emphasise, I think the really important point about neighbourhoods, which is the central thing for us to recognise about our own capacity for kindness is that it's completely unrelated to our emotional state. It's got nothing to do with how you feel about the other people. Kindness is a response to our fellow humans because they are our fellow humans,
Nicole Abadee
Hugh let me ask one of the chapters in the book called "The rough with the smooth." Your mother who lived through the depression and through two world wars, believed that we grow through pain, and that we're formed more by the rough than by the smooth. How has that belief of hers influenced you?
Hugh Mackay
I think very profoundly, it's always made me suspicious. And I've become increasingly suspicious as the happiness industry has boomed. I've always been suspicious of the idea that the goal of life was to be happy. You know, that was a concept that was completely rubbished by my mother. And I think I think I took that in with my mother's milk. It is such a vacuous idea. I mean, happiness is a really lovely emotion. We love it when we feel happy. It's almost always fleeting and ephemeral, we often don't even realize we were happy until the moment has passed. And we often don't realize that the exquisite pleasure we take in pleasure, in happiness, depends on knowing the difference, knowing the, having the contrast. So that's one that's one dimension of this. The other thing I think that has to be said, is that no one will tell you that their major, personal emotional, psychological growth, occurred as a result of euphoria. No one said, you know, I've had this dream round for the last 20 years now, it's taught me the following thing. Now, when people talk about the lessons, the important, precious, valuable lessons that life has taught them, they are almost always talking about dark phases of life, periods of disruption, pain, and experience of loneliness, or an experience of relationship breakdown or of serious illness or retrenchment, or at a societal level, it might be a war or depression or a pandemic. When people go through those things, no one enjoys it, no one says, Wow, now I've got a learning experience. I must say that this way, we can't wait for it to end. And we say this was terrible. I wouldn't wish this on anyone. But then we look back and say, Actually, I learned a lot of stuff about myself, and about what it means to be human. And I developed a lot more resilience as a result of going through those, those rough passages in life. So I mean, on reflection, I think she was absolutely right. But of course, she was right along with a vast host of wise people in the past, philosophers, mystics, etc, who have been saying that, since the beginning of time.
Nicole Abadee
Hugh you made that point that the typical human pattern is that we do emerge from crises as better people, better citizens, better neighbours. Do you think that will happen this time? And if you do, what would a kinder more loving Australia look like?
Hugh Mackay
Yes, I don't want to be blindly optimistic about this, because I know that in Australia, compared with Italy, Spain, India, the UK, the US, etc, etc, Mexico, this has been a relatively mild experience, but nevertheless a huge disruption both to the health and to the economic health of many, many thousands of, hundreds of thousands of Australians, who've had a very tough time, so I'm hopeful is perhaps the wrong word to use in this context. But I am hopeful that we've had enough of a shock to learn the lesson that, as I said earlier in the conversation that the trends that have been driving us have been driving us in a direction that is actually bad for us in emphasising our sense of individuality. The obsession with identity and identity politics, gender identity, ethnic identity, religious identity, all important, but nowhere near as significant as the thing we have to learn. When we go through a period of hardship like this, and when we do understand that we share this common humanity that we are interdependent, interconnected, and there's no escape. That's the kind of people we are. So if we will, if we did internalise those lessons, I think there would be huge changes. Well, significant changes in our personal lives and our personal encounters within the family, friends, colleagues, and especially neighbours, but also, at the societal level. Personally, I think, you know, I think the surest sign that we had learned these lessons and and taken them on board would be that we would all become better, more attentive, more sympathetic, more empathic listeners to each other. That would be a good sign to me, that we had learned a deep lesson from this pandemic, which is that we need to value each other more. And, and one of the most potent signs of how we value each other is that we're prepared to listen, we're prepared to set our own concerns aside for a little while, and attend to what someone is trying to say to us. So if we became more of a listening culture, a more patient, more empathic, listening culture, that would be to me a sure sign that the pandemic had done its work. But societally it would, if it got into our political culture, Nicole, just imagine, imagine if any social or economic policy proposal was first assessed, in terms of whether it's kind and fair. Just Just imagine, imagine a parliamentary subcommittee or a party room discussion or a cabinet discussion, or a parliamentary debate, in which it's agreed, sort of unwritten rule, is, "well, the first thing we have to consider fellow parliamentarians fellow lawmakers, the first thing we have to consider is this kind and is this fair?:" Now, what would that mean in relation to the process of true reconciliation with the peoples of our First Nations? What would it mean about our response to the Uluru statement from the heart? What would it mean, about our treatment of elderly people particularly in aged care? What would it mean about our treatment of refugees and people who come here seeking asylum?
Nicole Abadee
Hugh are there any countries that are doing something like that, that are using a kindness or a compassion test as a, as a measure or a way of testing government behaviour and actions?
Hugh Mackay
I have to admit that I don't know whether that's the case. But but but some of the, as specifically as that, but some of what we observe about policy initiatives and rhetoric in some other countries about the, around the world, suggest to me that that is in the minds of some political leaders. I'm thinking particularly of Finland. There are there are Finnish initiatives in relation to both education, aged care and homelessness, which caused me to think that the lawmakers of Finland are much more attuned to the idea of kindness and fairness, then we are.
Nicole Abadee
You mentioned that one about Finland and homelessness in your book, what is that initiative?
Hugh Mackay
They give homeless people homes, isn't that a bright idea? And by the way, notice that in the beginning of the national lockdown in Melbourne, homeless people in Melbourne were regarded as a health hazard and so they were housed, some of them in hotel rooms, some of them in public housing, and so on. It didn't last but for the time that it did last, which was several months, people who worked with the homeless in those settings said they were much more, but much better equipped, to deal with some of the issues in their lives that had led to their homelessness in the first place. And that's exactly the Finnish argument. They say, you don't have to be securely housed before, we'll help you address your problems. Sorry, you don't have to address your problems before we can find housing for you. It's the other way around. We know you need to be securely housed. That's an absolutely fundamental sign that you are valued in this society. That regardless of your circumstances, regardless of what terrible conditions or factors drove you to homelessness, we don't have homeless people in our society, we give you a house, and then we work with, or some kind of housing, and then we work with you to address the problems that led to this so you can get back on your feet.
Nicole Abadee
Let's talk now about one of the other very important theories or principles of your book and that is that we, all humans were born to cooperate and not to compete. You say as you've mentioned earlier, that we as humans have an infinite capacity for kindness. We're all programmed to cooperate and that, that capacity for love and for kindness is at the very essence of human nature. What makes you say that?
Hugh Mackay
Yeah, let's think of us as, as a species, I think of us all as love machines. loving this particular sense of the captured by the word kindness, which is emotionless love, affection, loss, love, just a default position, which is, I value you as a person, because you're part of me, we're all part of the greater whole. The common good depends on all of us doing our best. So let's do it. So I say that, because I know there are people all over the world in every community who are constantly behaving like that. I mean, in the book, I gave a lengthy list of things that people do, ranging from smiling and saying, hello, whenever they pass you in the street, all the way through to planting trees in old age. Don't you think that's a remarkable thing for a human to do? Plant a tree when they know that they're never going to see that tree grow to maturity? They're never going to pick up fruit or sit in it's shade, but they do it.
Nicole Abadee
kindness is connected to selflessness, isn't it?
Hugh Mackay
Yes. Oh, yes, absolutely kindness is all about the other. Absolutely. So I see the evidence of it all around me. I see the evidence of it sharpened whenever there's a crisis in a person's individual life or societally. So that that empirical evidence leads me to say, wow, this is something that's absolutely inherent in humans. But then I listen to this irritating new breed of people called neuroscientists. Psychologists and philosophers in the past have just tried to imagine what's going on in people's brains and here are these clever people with their brilliant technology, who can actually peep into the human brain. Dr. Fiona Kerr, a star neuroscientist who lives in Adelaide, has often written about the fact that you can now identify in the human brain, the cooperative centre. In other words, we are hardwired to cooperate. As an American neuroscientist recently wrote, "we are hardwired for the golden rule." That's actually our basic equipment. Now, of course, we do compete and sometimes we compete for fun and sometimes we compete for someone's heart. And sometimes we compete lethally, in violence and war and so on. But it's not innate to our species to compete, there are circumstances in which we learn to compete, in which we're quite capable of behaving competitively. But cooperative, the cooperative nature is absolutely of the essence of our character as a social species, you couldn't be a social species that survived this long if you were not fundamentally driven by cooperation. So cooperation is all about who we really are as a species. Competition is all about me. Competition is all about my desire to win something at the expense of someone else. And so that's antithetical to the spirit of the human species. But of course, the ego is a powerful driver. And the ego is the great enemy of kindness and cooperation and social harmony. If our egos ran wild, we'd be competitive all the time.
Nicole Abadee
Here, I want to come back to this idea of kindness as being selfless. And you write in your book about how if somebody does a thing for, does something kind but for an ulterior motive, then that's not really kindness at all, you give us a sort of a big example, one that we see a lot; of philanthropists who might donate a big chunk of money to a particular organisation, on the condition that the building is named after them. I want to ask you, what if there's a dual motivation for my act of kindness, people who suffer from depression, are often advised that doing something altruistic that doing something for other people, will make them feel better. So I was wondering about this, if I suffer from depression, and I decided to make a home cooked meal and to take it to my elderly neighbour who lives on her own. That's for two reasons. It's because I want to do something kind for her but it's also because I want my mental health to improve, my depression to lift. Is that kindness?
Hugh Mackay
Yes, absolutely it is. I mean, and you've, that's a lovely example, Nicole, because it's wonderfully complicated as human motivation always is. Yes, there's no doubt that the great antidote to anxiety the great antidote to loneliness, to some extent, depending on the nature of the depression, but to some extent, the antidote to depression, is to turn the focus outwards. And to attune ourselves to the needs of other people. As we respond to them, will will experience the benefits of behaving like a member of a social species because we'll be more truly human will be flourishing more as humans. So that's all true. What I'm worried about is the idea that we would, that we would be driven primarily by the self interest motivation. Now, it's very complicated. In the case of the case, you mentioned where someone is feeling a bit low and they, they're partly wanting to cheer themselves up while also doing good by cooking a meal for the elderly neighbour, I think that's fine. By the way, there is no guarantee that they will have cheered themselves up. But there is a guarantee that the elderly neighbour will appreciate the act of kindness, and the world will be a better place because that meal was cooked. So I think that that's an important way of distinguishing between the two motivations. The motivation to respond to someone else's need is pure, and transformative, it does make the world a better place. The motivation that I hope I'll cheer myself up, or I'll feel good about myself, if I perform this act, well, okay. If you're, if you're struggling with depression, I understand that, or anxiety or loneliness but there is no guarantee. There is research saying that people who behave kindly towards others often feel better about themselves. But they don't always there are there are circumstances in which you will go out of your way to help someone in a crisis. And it will be incredibly irritating and annoying and wastes a lot of your time. And yes, you'll say, Oh, well, I have to do it. I mean, there was no one else there to help I have to be the one I got soaked to the skin and I was running late for an appointment. So I didn't feel better about myself, except somewhere in the recesses of my mind, I would know the world was a better place because I did that. But I'm worried about what seems to be the currently rather fashionable idea that we should be kind to each other in order to increase our own happiness. Well, I think that's a huge contradiction.
Nicole Abadee
Let's talk now about something that you touched on earlier. And that is the need to be heard. Why do we all need to be carefully listened to? What signal does that send us if somebody listens carefully and attentively to what we say?
Hugh Mackay
Well, again, I'll just wind back to the basic proposition that we belong to a social species, not every species on Earth is social, many are, dolphins are, our pigeons are etc, and so are we. And because we belong to a social species being recognised and accepted by our fellow humans is fundamental to our mental and emotional health, that all important sense of belonging is a very rich contributor to mental health. Now the sign, so the sign that we belong, the sign that we are being accepted is that someone is taking us seriously noticing us, you know, even in just as such a simple thing as smiling and waving when they pass us in the street, a total stranger, that could be the moment when that person was feeling bleak. A bit neglected, a bit under appreciated and just your smile. You know, it's really like a ray of sunshine, sorry to use a sort of kindergarten analogy. But just in that moment, life feels better because they are recognised. And that's all the way up to people who received the gift of attentive, empathic listening because listening says, just for the moment, I'm going to set aside my own concerns, my own prejudices, my own impatience to say what I want to say. And I'm going to give myself up to the business of taking, of proving to you that I take you seriously by listening to you and that knowing that some, I mean when, when you are listening to me now, that is an enormous source of encouragement, and well being for me, because I know someone's interested in what I think about all this. So and that's true whether you're listening to me, or to your partner or to your family or to your friends, or whoever it might be. That's a gift. And, and, and, and I think it's the most potent symbol of kindness. It's the most potent symbol that I do take this other person seriously, if people feel they are not being taken seriously. Well, first of all, just before I say that, on the subject of listening, if we don't listen to someone who needs us to listen to them, if we don't listen, with our attention, and, and, and empathically, setting aside our own concerns for the moment, then the message we send that person is sorry, I don't take you seriously enough to bother listening attentively to what you have to say. Now, no parent would ever say that to a child. No person would ever say that to a partner or a friend or that you wouldn't say to someone's face, sorry, don't take you seriously enough to bother listening to you. But every time we fail to listen, the implicit message is I don't take you seriously enough to bother. Now, if someone feels they are not being taken seriously, it is likely to bring out the worst. The least consequential response to that is just shrug and say, "Oh, well, I'm a bit under appreciated, I'd better just get on with it and do what I think is the right thing to do. And I won't be acknowledged or appreciated." But that then leads on to feelings of despair, to feelings of social isolation, to feelings of depression, and sometimes even to violence.
Nicole Abadee
Here, you also talk in this particular chapter about apology and about forgiveness. And I'd like you just to tell us a little bit about the benefits of forgiveness for both parties for both the forgiver and the forgiven.
Hugh Mackay
This is a case where there clearly are benefits that run in both directions. Well, I once again, I wouldn't suggest that the motivation for forgiveness should be that I'll feel better. And then the motivation for forgiveness is a recognition that this person has wronged me, or hurt or offended me in some way. And particularly if they've apologised, what they most need, is my forgiveness because we all do when we've hurt or offended someone else. Mostly, we're prepared to apologise, in anticipation of forgiveness, to apologise and not to be forgiven is a funny sort of leaves you hanging in the air. But even if you haven't apologised sometimes, I mean, the most dramatic example from the 20th century was Nelson Mandela. After all those years of imprisonment, no one apologised to him but he emerged, saying that he forgave his captors. And there are famous examples through history and even in my own extended family, and most of us know people who have generously forgiven someone, even in the absence of an apology, but it's usually a symmetrical thing. I've offended you. I apologise. And you forgive me now. So so the forgiveness for me, is an enormous relief. It's an enormous sense that some kind of harmony between us has been restored. And that I no longer have to carry the burden of guilt about what I did to you because you've forgiven me, so I don't have to feel guilty anymore. But and for you, of course, if you forgive me, you are no longer the victim of my offence. And I think that's something we often overlook about people or sometimes will bear a grudge for a lifetime, or for decades, or even for weeks and that grudge is like a burden they carry. They have made themselves into victims. They've said "I'm never going to forgive that person. Look what she did to me, you know, how could I forgive someone who did that?" Well, that's that's, of course we're free to make that judgment but the, but the consequence is that we are damaged and burdened by our lack of forgiveness, and that if we could find it in our hearts to forgive, another ultimate act of kindness because it's a recognition of someone else's need, then we release ourselves from victimhood.
Nicole Abadee
I'd like to ask you now about cynicism, which is really, as you explain it, the antithesis of kindness. You gave a great example of a recent encounter that you had with cynicism. You had been asked a question by a journalist. And you responded by saying that one one of the positives of the pandemic was that people were writing longer and warmer emails. What happened?
Hugh Mackay
Yes the journalist said, I suppose we can put that down to I've forgotten the word that was used, we can we can put that down, put that down as another one of the problems or another one of the, another price we have to pay for the pandemic? In other words, what sentimental rubbish? Surely we don't want longer email, we don't want people expressing caring sentiments in emails,
Nicole Abadee
What's wrong with cynicism?
Hugh Mackay
I was shocked by that because cynicism is a disengagement from the human struggle. Cynicism is, a cynic is a person who stands aside as a kind of spectator with a sneer perpetually on their face, expecting the worst, predicting the worst, not believing well of other people, not not accepting that people have a capacity for kindness and goodness, it's all assuming that people are basically driven by negative impulses, and it'll all end in tears "and there it has, see, I told you" and that happens, whether it's people observing the political scene, social evolution, or very often the life of the organization, they work for. It, it's kind of it's a cancerous thing because it does eat away at the cynic. Because the more cynical we become, the less generous we're likely to be, the less forgiving, we're likely to be, the less empathic we're likely to be certainly the less kind. "Well, why? why be kind? I know what day it is, I can look after myself, let these people look after themselves." A typical cynical position, but it's also cancerous socially because the cynic, all of us have an influence on each other and the cynic can have a very corrosive effect on the people that they live with or work with because cynicism can often be quite attractively amusing,
Nicole Abadee
And infectious
Hugh Mackay
And infectious. Yes, yes. I mean, many comedians run on cynicism and we laugh at that "isn't that funny to make fun of us in that way." And it can be in a light hearted way but when we develop a cynical view, I mean, I draw an important distinction between cynicism and skepticism, very appropriate, because that's really just saying, "well, I haven't made up my mind about this. I'll withhold judgment, I won't attack it, I won't denigrate it, I'll just wait and see." Whether it's about a belief or about the outcome of some political initiative, or whatever it might be, I'll remain skeptical. I think that's very healthy and society needs cynics who are keeping the door open, without fully opening it. Waiting and seeing and questioning as closely about what this, what this means and so on. That's good. cynics are not skeptics, cynics are slamming the doors. "This is hopeless, I'll look after number one." That's a classic cynical proposition. "And they are always losers in every society." That's another cynical position. You know, "there are there are hopeless people. There are stupid people. That's just the way the world is. Don't ask me to help."
Nicole Abadee
Here, let's talk about imperfection. As individuals we know as you say that life is imperfect. And then you say we thrive on imperfection. It is our natural habitat. What do you mean by that?
Hugh Mackay
Well, one of the unkindest things we can do to each other, or indeed to ourselves, is to expect perfection. And we, let's start with beauty. When when we look into the face of a person we really love and say "Isn't she beautiful? Or Isn't he handsome" or whatever. What we're looking at inevitably, is imperfection. And the imperfection will turn out to have been a crucial ingredient in the beauty. I mean, in the in the 18th century, they put fake moles on their faces and called them beauty spots. Because they knew if you had an imperfection, you looked more beautiful, you know one year is bigger than the other one. higher than the other. No, no pair of eyes is ever truly symmetrical. That's just the way it is. I mean, no tree grows symmetrically. No snowflake is absolutely symmetrical. I mean nature doesn't teach us to admire perfection, nature teaches us to admire imperfection. The clouds in the sky and make the, make the sky more beautiful, etc. So translating that into our personal relationships and everyday life, I'm not suggesting, of course that we say, "Oh, well, I'll settle for second best, I won't try too hard, because perfection is, is always going to elude me" Of course, we still need to strive to do better for the, to make the world a better place. If you if you're wondering why we're here, that's why we're here, to make the world a better place, to respond to each other's needs. But we won't do any of it perfectly, none of us will be a perfect saint. None of us will always be kind, even when we're committed to kindness as a way of life. And I think part of our generosity towards each other and necessary generosity towards each other, is to acknowledge that the other is not perfect, either. And so when we criticize a partner, or child or colleague or someone, as though we expected perfection from them, we're being, we're being cruel to expect perfection. I do say in the book that there is, there is a perfect moment coming for all of us and of course, it's this when you're dead, you're perfectly dead. And that's the one moment, that transition, is something to be looked forward to as a moment of perfection.
Nicole Abadee
But I want to come back now as we close to the idea of kindness and the kindness revolution. You say near the end, that you are now ready to commit to a more radical revolutionary brand of kindness? What does that look like here? And how does it differ from kindness as we have traditionally understood it?
Hugh Mackay
Well, for me, and I hope for some people who read the book and take this idea away. But for me, it means relentless kindness, it means kindness that refuses to be discouraged by other people's unkindness, kindness that goes on, not in anticipation of reciprocity but just kindness is the way for us to be if we're going to experience the full flourishing potential of our humanity. And I think I've fallen way short of that ideal for far too long but I now recognise that that the richest, most meaningful, most deeply satisfying human life not always happy, but deeply satisfying human life, is the one that's lived with kindness as the default position. In other words, that's, that's where we start. We'll act kindly now "How will we express it?" We could terminate a relationship kindly. We could discipline a child kindly. We could terminate someone's employment kindly, we could certainly have a robust argument with someone about religion or politics or out or anything kindly. And I think once we accept that that framework, we can apply it in any setting, regardless of how we feel with a person I don't like, a person I could never agree with but the whole thing is going to work better, if I can approach this in a spirit of kindness. I think that's the big lesson I learned from writing the book. And it's a commitment I'm making to myself. So I've called it radical kindness, because kindness can very easily be discouraged. When it's met with unkindness.
Nicole Abadee
Coming back to the title of the book, how do you start a Kindness Revolution? Where does that start? Where does the revolution start? How do you get the ball rolling?
Hugh Mackay
The revolution never starts at the top, we don't wait for the prime minister to announce that there's going to be a kindness revolution. We don't look to leaders in our community to somehow inspire us, some of them might. In some countries around the world that has clearly happened. Even New Zealand, there's been some lovely examples of kindness being promoted as an ideal. But now I think we've got to accept that this is intensely personal and individual, the revolution will start, as most significant social revolutions do start, by individuals deciding to live differently. If you dream of an Australia that is kinder, more compassionate, more tolerant, more inclusive, less violent, or cynical, more cooperative, more harmonious, all of those things, then there is only one way to make that. It's not a silly dream, I think we should all be dreaming of the kind of society we want. But there is only one way to make the dream come true. And that is for enough of us to start living as if it is that kind of society. And then it begins to become that kind of society with enough of us living like that not being discouraged. Embracing radical kindness.
Nicole Abadee
Hugh I want to end by putting something to you a description of You: Father, Frank Brennan has described you as "a hopeful realist, rather than an unreal optimist." What do you think of that description?
Hugh Mackay
Well, I haven't heard that. But I'm, I couldn't be more delighted by that description. hopeful, realist, hopeful realist, yes. I mean, I, I hope, yeah, that's perfect. But that captures it exactly.
Nicole Abadee
Hugh thank you so much for talking to me today about this wonderful book, "The Kindness Revolution." I hope that it catches on. It's a wonderful culmination of all of your nonfiction work to date and I urge listeners to to grab a copy and read it and you will finish it feeling considerably enlightened and better than when you started reading it. So thank you. Thank you for talking to me about it today. It's really wonderful to have you back on Books, Books, Books.
Hugh Mackay
Thank you very much, Nicole. I really appreciate your interest in my work over a number of years. I'm grateful for that. Thank you.
Nicole Abadee
Thank you for listening to Books, Books, Books. If you liked what you heard in this episode, please go to my website, nicoleabadee.com.au. To listen to all the episodes and find out more about the podcast you can also find me Nicole Abadee on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter, and look for my reviews in Good Weekend. You can subscribe to Books, Books, Books at Apple podcasts, Spotify, Google and all the usual places. It would be lovely if you could go to any of these platforms and give a rating or review. Thank you. I look forward to talking books with you again soon.