Podcast Transcript
Stephanie Smee, Pascal Janovjak “The Rome Zoo”
SPEAKERS
Nicole Abadee, Stephanie Smee
Nicole Abadee 00:05
Hello, I'm Nicole Abadee and I write about books for good weekend. Welcome to the Books, Books, Books podcast in which I interview the best writers from Australia and overseas about their latest book. Thank you for joining me. Before we begin, I would like to acknowledge the country where I live and work and from where I'm joining this conversation, the lands of the Gadigal people of the Eora nation. I pay my respects to their elders past and present to the elders of all communities and cultures across Australia, and to leaders of the future. You can listen to this podcast all of the episodes at nicoleabadee.com.au or subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. Today I'm delighted to welcome Australian writer and translator Stephanie Smee, to Books Books, books to speak about her most recent book, a translation of the prize winning "The Rome Zoo" by Pascal Janovjak , published here in August 2021 by Black Ink. Stephanie left a career in the law to work as a literary translator. Her translations have been reviewed in the economist, The New York Times, The Financial Times and The Times literary supplement, as well as of course in many newspapers and journals here in Australia. The 2017 translation of "No Place to Lay One's Head" by Francois Frank Hill, won the Jewish quarterly Wingate literary prize of 2019. The 2019 translation of "The Godmother" by Hannah Hannelore Cayre, won the 2020 crime Writers Association, crime fiction in translation award, and was significantly one of the New York Times 100 notable books of 2019, a most fantastic achievement. Her 2021 translation of the prize winning "On the Line - Notes from a Factory" by Joseph Ponthus, has been attracting wonderful reviews. Stephanie's translation of "The Rome Zoo," which has won three major literary awards in Europe has been described by the Australian as "beautifully written, immaculately conceived, constructed and paste." Stephanie, welcome to Books, Books, Books,
Stephanie Smee 02:12
Thank you so much for having me, Nicole, it's just a complete pleasure to be with you.
Nicole Abadee 02:16
Now before we start to talk about The Rome Zoo, I just would like to ask you a few general questions about your work as a translator, you're the first translator that I've interviewed here on books, books, books. You speak a number of languages, French, Italian, German, and Swedish. How did you come to speak all of those languages?
Stephanie Smee 02:36
I should say at the outset that I speak them in varying degrees of fluency these days. And I guess I was lucky to be brought up in a household that was full of language, even though English was the language that we communicated in at home. My parents first shared language was French, and they met in Geneva, my mother is Swedish and she speaks about five or six languages, including French and German, and of course, English. And my father, as well as speaking French also is a classasist and taught Latin and ancient Greek. So I guess, I was just always immersed in in discussions of language as well as I guess language itself. It was something that that always interested me, as well as studying law. My other degree was in French, and I did an honours degree in French, I couldn't decide which path to go down, I guess. And I suppose it was really. After I had my my second child that I guess I felt, I wasn't quite prepared to commit myself to the law in a way that perhaps I felt that career deserved. And it was a wonderful opportunity to return, I guess, to my original love of languages and get my translation qualifications. So at first, I worked as a legal translator for a number of years, in fact, which was, which was fabulous training and in fact, I really enjoyed that work. But then I decided to make the switch and give the literary translation a go. So I feel incredibly fortunate every time I sit down with a with a new book and a bit tickled, I have to say, to be able to have the chance to sort of work with these extraordinary author's words. It's a real privilege,
Nicole Abadee 04:22
Stephanie, so far, I've noticed that all of the adults books that you've translated have been into French, but I noticed that you also did a children's series with your mother from the Swedish.
Stephanie Smee 04:30
Yes, yes.
Nicole Abadee 04:31
Is French your strongest language? Is that the one that you will continue to work on in relation to adult books?
Stephanie Smee 04:36
Yes, look, absolutely. I feel perhaps because I have the academic background that is strongest in French. The thesis that I wrote, in fact, was on French criminal law, aspects of French criminal law with a sort of philosophical bent. That was written in French and I just feel it's, it's, I guess, the language that I have that sort of substratum of knowledge which which really helps with with the translation. And in many ways, I think I reflect often that my legal training and the work that I did as a researcher and and as a judges associate, in fact, led me in many ways to the work of translation or assisted I guess in in honing those skills because they are very particular skills that you learn as a lawyer. And in you know, there's there's an element of pedantry in there as well, which I think is incredibly useful for, for a translator, and attention to detail, I think which, you know, hopefully one acquires as a lawyer, but also, just that sort of focus on words, which I think really has has helped in my work as a literary translator. So I don't, for a moment regret, the legal training that I've had as well.
Nicole Abadee 05:56
Stephanie, several of the books that you've translated have been prize winners in Europe, The Godmother, On the Line and now this one, The Rome Zoo, so how do you select the books that you choose to translate?
Stephanie Smee 06:07
Look, I feel very fortunate that I have the opportunity to do a lot of reading around and, and keeping an eye constantly on what is going on in in the French literary world, the way rights are sold, of course, is, is mysterious and speedy. And you know, you have to very much be on the ball and have some good relationships with publishers to be able to pitch these these books and ideas to them
Nicole Abadee 06:33
To the overseas publisher or to the Australian publisher?
Stephanie Smee 06:37
Of course, one has to determine that the rights are available and and then, of course, in the meantime, put your proposal to a publisher or publishers, you know, in the anglophone world, who will hopefully share your enthusiasm for the for the book. So yes, I'm constantly on the hunt, I guess, looking at literary journals, keeping up to speed with what's going on in the general media and press around around literary releases, I guess, in much the same way that we do here in, you know, the anglophone world, but it is it's a time consuming process. And I think anybody in the arts, you know, whether it's literature or whether it's, you know, another art form of pitching ideas and researching, and there's a lot of, I guess, behind the scenes work, that goes goes into that effort that sometimes comes off, and sometimes it doesn't, but I feel generally like I've been incredibly fortunate with the, with the variety of the projects that I've been able to work on, as well. The other point I guess, I'd like to make in terms of choosing the work which goes back to your your question, is that just because a work is a prize winner in one language doesn't necessarily mean that it's going to work as well, find its market, be appreciated, in another language. But I think of course, it's often a very good indicator that the work is a special one and and worth translating. And frankly, you know, not enough, not enough literature from foreign languages gets translated into English the percentages are shocking.
Nicole Abadee 08:07
Stephanie one thing I was really interested in is what your relationship was with the original author of the book in French. So I'm going to ask you that now generally, we'll come to talk about Pascal a little bit later when we talk about The Rome Zoo, but generally speaking, I assume your initial dealings are with the international publisher but then if you could tell us a little bit about what relationship if any, you have with he original author.
Stephanie Smee 08:29
Yeah look, I think it's a it's a relationship that varies depending on the author's own facility with with English and the degree of interest I guess they are able or willing to show in, in the translation and I think most translators will agree that it's fabulous to be able to have some input from an author if there's something that you'd like to confirm and so on, but it doesn't it doesn't always work out that way. And very much the text is the sort of source you know, document of what you're trying to work with. And I think that the very nature of the task is always an attempt to find the voice of, or the voices, of that text and so so you start there. But you know, with, certainly with The Rome Zoo, I've I've been very fortunate in being able to have you know, to develop a lovely relationship I think with with Pascal as well, and he, his views about the book.
Nicole Abadee 09:31
So could you tell us a little bit about that? How did that relationship start?
Stephanie Smee 09:34
Well, I think it was after I had worked on the translation and and he was happy to to look at the text Pascal, himself I should add is an extraordinary polyglot. He speaks now he writes obviously in French, but he has worked as well as a translator into German. His English is immaculate. He speaks Italian as well. So he he is the ideal author for a translator to be working with, because I think he understands the, the subtlety of what we're trying to do in the, in the act of translation. So I think we also shared some some interests around art and art history and architecture, and so on. So we've been able to communicate a little bit about that as well. And I've found out a little bit more just on a very, I guess, superficial level in some senses way about how he's living in Rome and, and his family and so on. So that's been a real treat, I have to say, to get a little bit of access into that world. And hopefully one day, we will be able to either welcome him here to Australia, or I will be able to visit him wherever he may be.
Nicole Abadee 10:45
And as you said, He's living in Rome now, isn't he? I gather, he's lived there for some time. And that he he formed a real fascination with the zoo, the subject of the book.
Stephanie Smee 10:53
That's right, he has a couple of young children. And I think he became familiar with the zoo, taking his his children on visits to the zoo. And I also think he has a genuine interest professionally as well as in the art and architecture and design of the zoo, which I think you'll agree are sort of fairly strong themes that that run through the work. And so I think that is certainly how his idea for the story is sort of developed and found it's found its background,
Nicole Abadee 11:25
If you enjoy this conversation with Stephanie, which I hope you will and if you enjoy her fantastic book, which I'm pretty sure you will, there's a lovely short clip on YouTube of Pascal, talking in English about this book. It's only three minutes if you just Google the name of the book The Rome Zoo and Pascal, Black Inc, you'll come up with it, and I watched it just before we spoke today, and it was fantastic. And he was very entertaining the way he used the little Lego figures of the zoo, but it was really interesting to hear him speak. So listeners if you're enjoying this experience, I do recommend that you do that. Let's move now Stephanie to talk specifically about The Rome Zoo. I'm going to ask you to start by reading a short extract please.
Stephanie Smee 12:03
Of course I'll introduce it I guess by saying that the extract that I read is one where Giovanna, the Rome Zoo's Communications and Marketing Director is paying a visit to the closure of Oscar the Tamandin, who is a sort of a scaly anteater and the last of his kind and he lives at the zoo. And she's going to meet the Zoo's Director and the Zoo's vet Dr. Morrow there. That is how Europe's last rinderpest epidemic was brought to an end. When the olds keeper recounted the episode to Giovanna. He used other words coloured by his Roman accent, and by details only he knew, not that he himself had witnessed the epidemic, but he had been born in July of that year in 1949, during the quarantine. His father was just a young keeper at the time. He had often told his son how he had scaled the fence to get to the maternity ward that night. But all of that is in the past, looking at the Tamandin. Both of them were in its enclosure waiting for the zoo's Director and for Morrow, the creature had taken cover behind its bush with just the tip of its snout and the Husky sound of its breathing discernible. Giovanna asked if she might approach it. But the keeper replied that it was a timid animal and its claws could be dangerous. It's quite a sight to see Oscar suddenly rear up on his hind legs. He has only done it to me once but that was back in the beginning, when we didn't know each other yet. Normally, he's only active at night. Sometimes he'll even go for a climb in the tree. But these days, that's rare. He's getting on now, like me. In any case, I'm very happy he's not going off to London running a callus to end up first face. The silence that had settled between animal and human, was interrupted by the insistent ring of Giovanna's phone, which she didn't feel like answering, she was cold, she was also ashamed not to have paid more attention to this creature, now it was about to become a curiosity. And suddenly she realised this very simple fact, that in the rush to sell the spectacle of so many different animals, how easy it was to feed the fascination conjured by the presence of just a single one. Morrow had told her that when observing an animal when should first take note of its tracks, and Giovanna shivered to see the deep gashes etched into the tree trunk. The enclosure was tainted violence and solitude. The keeper cleared his throat, "I'd very much like" she said in hoarse voice. "I mean, if it's possible, I've already asked the doctor. I'd very much like to keep looking after him."
Nicole Abadee 14:38
Stephanie, thank you. Could you tell us what this book the Rome zoo is about?
Stephanie Smee 14:42
At one level, I think the novel is about the zoo and zoos generally and the purpose they serve both sort of socially and from a scientific point of view. And of course anthropologically, metaphorically and the author uses this retelling of the Rome Zoo's history to give us access, I guess, to the drama's of of the backdrop of Italy itself, and and the history of that country against the backdrop of the zoo. But I think fundamentally, the book is about much more than that, I think, in a way that the sort of construct of the zoo and its attempts to confine and constrain its animals, act as a foil, if you like, for the author's own musings and, and consideration of the sort of human existential crisis. And I think there's a there's a wonderful sort of contrast between the sort of artifice of the zoo, and the fact that that our own sort of human life is in fact no more absurd than the artificial reality of the zoo itself. And, and he's looking constantly at ways in which humans can make sense of, of this absurdity. And I think you might agree with this. And that one of the ways he does this is just by looking at the, at how connections are formed both between the main protagonists, Giovanna, the the zoo's Marketing and Communications Director, and Shalin Gabi, who's, who's an architect who is there to consider some proposal for the development of the zoo. There's that relationship, there's a relationship between the keeper of one of the zoo's more peculiar animals, that Tamandin, which I referred to in my reading, and, and also, I guess, the the relationship that the zoo has, with the future of Rome, and its meaning, I guess, in how it's going to justify its existence moving forward.
Nicole Abadee 17:06
As you pointed out, there are two parallel narratives there. One relates to the history of the zoo, which, again, as you said, in a way parallels the history of Italy through the 20th century. And then one relates to the present, it's set around about 2009 - 2010. One question I did want to ask you, before we move to talk about those diverse narratives is that it's interesting that in the language years, you've done this in the translation, and I'm assuming it was the case in the original, the present tense is used for the historical past. And the past tense is used for the present part. Why do you think Janovjak did that?
Stephanie Smee 17:45
It's an extraordinary slippage isn't that and I have to say, as as the translator, it was always a jolt to make sure that you were working in the correct tense. That was obviously a very deliberate choice on the part. It is, and I think much of it serves to make the history of the zoo, very present. Because it is written in the present tense, there's an immediacy to it as well. And there is also then I think, it helps with this notion of, of history sort of flashing past very quickly. Often he traverses sort of great swathes of history and in a very short time, and which I think is helped by that, that use of tense. And then there's this weightlessness, if you like, of the present day characters and protagonists, which seems by contrast to move very slowly, sometimes, and, and scenes that unfold gently, and with no particular speed. And I think again, the use of the use of the tense in the past tense helps with that with that contrast. It's a fascinating linguistic technique, actually.
Nicole Abadee 18:59
Alright, let's talk a little bit about the history of the zoo. It does very much reflect the history of Italy through the 20th century. And I made a lot of notes on this. We're not going to get to talk about all of it, but I'll just, I'll pick out just a few key points. Let's start with the early history of the zoo, which opened in 1911. And we have the German creator Should I call him or architect Karl Hagenbeck Yes, explains his vision to the mayor of Rome. And he says it's going to be a vision of perfect coexistence and illusion of utmost freedom. And one of the significant things about this zoo, as I understand it, is that Hagen, Beck's original conception was that there would be no bars or walls that the animals would, as it were, appear to be roaming free in an unconstrained way. Would you like to talk a little bit about that early history in the early conception of the zoo?
Stephanie Smee 19:48
I think again, it needs to be understood in the context of what was going on with zoos around Europe. And it's a sort of a fairly and attractive history in the context of the colonial history of what was going on with so many European nations and so on. In many ways zoos sort of reflected the colonial aspirations of these countries. And, and it's an unappealing sort of history.
Nicole Abadee 20:14
Do you mean they're the examples spoken about here of animals being shipped in from Eritrea, and from Libya and Somalia - which were Italian colonies?
Stephanie Smee 20:22
Yes, exactly. And that was and I think that was the case for zoos, you know, around Europe that this was a it was a way of the the nations like usually, like the other countries of displaying this sort of colonial might, and so on. And so a great deal of effort was was put into the design of, of these places, and Hagenbeck, I think is, was renowned for his design of zoos in in a number of different cities around around Europe. And there is some discussion I think, I've seen in some other writings about about the novel, you know, emphasising this very, the way that that many of the enclosures and buildings represent places from other parts of the world and so on, and sort of helped to give that notion of otherness, to the animals and their enclosures, which then stands in very sort of stark contrast to the humans who are who are watching them and observing them. But absolutely Hagenbeck I mean that is one of the fascinating things in general Janovjak's book is that that history he captures very deftly really with a with an incredible lightness of touch for the amount of knowledge that they're real characters, they're, they're crazy characters in in some respects. Some of the people that he talks about in creating the zoo and the various, no the the fake Matterhorn and the way you know, the details in which these these mock mountains were built in, in the middle of Rome, is a madness in itself. But But you didn't need to make it up because these are these are real people. And and, you know, we're very much part of the the zoo's history.
Nicole Abadee 22:11
So let's jump forward now to the 1920s, where we hear about a visit from a very sensitive and attentive man. Who is he? And what's he doing at the zoo? Why is he visiting?
Stephanie Smee 22:24
I suspect you might be referring to Benito Mussolini. And in fact, the chapter which describes that was one chapter which I was deciding whether or not I would I would do as as the reading. So he has come to visit his Lioness, who he has as Janovjak writes, you know, very unoriginally called Italia. Who is now being kept by the by the zoo. So having been been gifted this this animal, he's of course outgrown his ability to look after it and is now being being housed in the zoo. But again, Janovjak's descriptions of, of Mussolini, and you know, the backdrop of fascism, it's not just through his relationship with his own likeness, but also the various other animals as well, which which form part of that story, which are just fascinating.
Nicole Abadee 23:24
There's a great line where I think that Mussolini became dictator in 1925. And I should say that, as you say, one of the beautiful things about this book is the density of the history. It certainly had me checking lots of historical details of what was happening at the time was when he became dictator in 1925. And then we read in the book, how in 1927, he's now the dictator and he orders an extension of the zoo. And he says, or the author reflects "the virility of an empire is proportionate to the size of it's zoo" Janovjack in that YouTube extract that I referred to, said that one of the things he wanted to show was how the fascists used the zoo, for their own purposes. Would you like to talk a little bit about that?
Stephanie Smee 24:10
Yes, look, it's it. It's an interesting angle to buy which to sort of observe what what was going on in the zoo. There was one occupant of the zoo called Fritz, who has the Marsican Brown Bear, who was trained to give a Nazi salute when children were, were feeding it, it sweets. And I think, again, it's this this metaphor for training these animals in this mindless, thoughtless way which perhaps can be understood as the way in the same way that whole populations were trained to sort of follow mindless orders and so on in the time of fascism and so on, and not just Italy. Of course, so I think it's a again, it's not something that Janovjak dwells on. He did, he deals with it swiftly, passing through but with an aside, I guess that he cuts through so, so much history with a with this extremely insightful perspective, I guess that allows him to make these comments that are sort of almost like afforisms, I think, which he often finishes one of the chapters with a comment like that, that literally sets you back on your haunches as a, as a reader in the sort of acuity of their observation. And I think those the, the metaphor between, you know, the, the role of the animals at that time, and what was going on politically in in greater Europe is is masterful, really,
Nicole Abadee 25:55
Let's talk now about the narrative that occurs in the presence tense, definitely. And that's, I think, as I worked it out about 2009, a lot of this activity is happening. So there are three main characters in this part of the narrative. You've mentioned them, and please excuse my pronunciation, which mightn't be as lovely as yours but there's Shalin Gabi, what do we know about him who's he.
Stephanie Smee 26:20
So he is an Algerian architect who's who's currently living in the in the Middle East, and has been summoned to Rome on for the suggested development proposal for work, which is going to be presumably a new project for the zoo's future. And that's how he comes to find himself in in Rome. And in fact, the book opens with his arrival in the hotel room in Rome, which has a view out over to the, to the great aviary of, of The Rome zoo.
Nicole Abadee 26:57
And there's something quite spectacular about that Avery isn't there, I wasn't aware of it again, I had to look it up and look at the pictures.
Stephanie Smee 27:03
It's one of and in fact, when translating it, it was incredibly useful to go back and look at some of the pictures and descriptions of these buildings that that the author was describing, because it does help to have a visual image of what you're trying to translate. And yes, that was that was a very particular sort of architectural feature of the zoo, which which still exists, and you can you can look it up if you're interested.
Nicole Abadee 27:28
Stephanie what about one of the other main characters Giovanna De Stefano? Can you tell us a little bit about her,
Stephanie Smee 27:34
So she in many ways, has been handed a poisoned chalice, as she has been appointed the marketing communications director and has in fact, far too many responsibilities for the zoo, than she is probably being paid for. She knows that the zoo is facing very troubled times. Attendances are down and her job is to try and reinvigorate the public's interest in the zoo. As we discover through the novel, it has had so many different incarnations, historically, and so many different emphases throughout its history. But where it finds itself now is in a very sorry state, there is vegetation, you know, taking over the place. It's no longer the place where families come on a you know, on a Sunday afternoon and a lot of the sort of Baroque splendour that that went with its original history has just slowly slowly dissipated and crumbled away. And so Giovanna's job is to try and use the limited funds that they have, which are rapidly sort of disappearing before her eyes, to try and get the public interested again and to justify its its existence.
Nicole Abadee 28:48
And somebody who is assisting her with that is Dr. Guido Moro, the zoo's scientist or zoologist. Tell us about him.
Stephanie Smee 28:56
He is an intriguing character, isn't he? And we discover quite quickly that he has quite a different agenda to Giovanna and he's incredibly superior to Giovanna in his dealings with her. He very much considers the zoo his domain. And in fact, one of the wonderful techniques I think that that the author uses is Moro's ability to observe the animals which is then transferred to his observations of the human protagonists, which are so clever and so insightful and lends so much in such a short description to what is motivating these characters. So we get a lot of understanding about what is happening with the characters through Moro's eyes, but he very much has has his own agenda and way in which he thinks he's going to just sort of reinvigorate the zoo and and make it a truly sort of noteworthy institution,
Nicole Abadee 30:01
I made a note of exactly what you'd said that the way he observes humans is almost with the same error of clinical detachment that he observes the animals. So and we get a description of Giovanna, who we learned elsewhere in the book is just a very beautiful, attractive woman. The way he describes her is in terms of the shape of her tibia, and the shape of her limbs.
Stephanie Smee 30:19
Yeah, exactly. And I think, I mean, it's, it's shocking, in a way when when you read it, because it is so clinical, and yet, there's a there's an accuracy about it still, that that is quite disarming. And, and, and you're sort of forced to say, "Yes, well, he's right. That's, that observation is incredibly precise and acute." And so I think it works as well, to remind us of that other theme that we spoke about earlier of the fact that these these human protagonists were we're all just animals, you know, and it actually just is, is an incredibly skilful way of reminding us of that thing.
Nicole Abadee 31:02
Let's talk now about possibly the main character, I won't of the book, but perhaps of this part of the narrative, the Tamandin, and yeah, to let listeners know something that I didn't know until I Googled it, this is a fictional creature, but what is it Stephanie what sort of an animal is it and why is it so special?
Stephanie Smee 31:18
It presented quite an interesting challenge from a translation point of view, because it is a made up animal in the French. It relates both to the French word for an anteater which is a Tamonoir and and also a Pangolin, which, so it is a combination of of these couple of words. It's a it's a sort of like a ant eatery type of creature and and so there was a question as to how that should best be rendered in the English and I played around a bit with it, but I think I decided that Tamandin would actually work just as well in English as it does in the French, because it also has that it harks back to a Tapir and so on which is a similar animal. So as you say, it is in fact a made up creature. Oscar as his he's called in the book is special because we discover that he is the last of his kind. And so it again, he is if you like the that sort of metaphor for the the human existential sort of crisis, the zoo's existential crisis and and how on earth we try and understand the fact that that this this creature will in fact, you know, die out before our very eyes and before the eyes of Rome zoos, visitors. And of course, he becomes the draw card for the zoo. And in ways in which not even Giovanna or Dr. Morrow could possibly have had imagined and he manages to capture the, the imagination of the of the entire world as this example of a creature that is, you know, becoming extinct.
Nicole Abadee 33:04
There are balloons, there's merchandisers, there's rulers, there's pencils, there's pens there, there's talk about building a Tamandin area. Set aside a whole part of the zoo especially to have an educational exhibit and basically this completely revives the fortunes of the zoo. So that masses of people pouring in and as you say, not just from Rome, but from all of Italy and then he becomes a bit of an internet sensation as well. What do you think that Janovjak is saying there about the exploitation by humans of animals for commercial purposes?
Stephanie Smee 33:37
It's a it's a really interesting question that one. I tended to look at that episode if you like and, and the the sort of going viral of Oscars fate as more a sort of comment about this ability that we have to create this crazy, uncontrolled interest in something so quickly and what that means in terms of knowledge and how how we understand something of this scale in a in an internet world. I hadn't really thought about it in terms of a point that that Janovjak might be trying to make in terms of the way humans exploit animals. But yeah, yeah, I think I think the the effect that that I found most touching and I guess it's it's that contrast again, between a broad internet sensation as we you know, see on a daily basis, and the impact that it has on our own personal lives, is a scene where the keeper is describing the the sea of people who are streaming past this enclosure and he notices that all of them are just trying to make contact with themselves and the person standing next to them. And it's that idea of actual real physical connection that I, I guess I was trying to get at earlier and it's it's almost like a trying to grip onto something. And I think that puts me in mind as well of one of the other themes that that just kept constantly returning that you have this incredibly artificial place that is the zoo and it's mapped and that there are buildings that that appear that are very sort of heavy, I guess they exist in their in their own weight, and so on. And yet, the characters, the protagonists, Shane and Giovanna in particular, are just constantly getting lost. It's just a returning returning theme in the book that no matter how many maps he has, of the zoo, Shane can never work out where he is. Giovanna herself, is never quite sure how to get back to her office, from the various places she goes. And it's like, on the one hand, you have this incredibly artificial, you know, designed place that is confined, and yet you're at sea in, you know, as you're making your way, your way through it as a human. And I think that that scene with all of the visitors to the zoo and to Oscar trying to hold on to something, it's almost like an attempt to ground themselves in some sort of meaningful reality that the zoo is constantly trying to represent. But in fact, for all of its efforts can't constrain. Does that make sense?
Nicole Abadee 36:47
It made me think of another part of the book where at one point Giovanna and Guido try to create a path, so, it made me think of an IKEA store, that people had to walk in a certain direction. And all roads would lead ultimately to the Tamandin. That was a, an effort to control people and to and then she realises that, of course, that will stop a lot of the joy of visiting a zoo, which is being able to meander off into paths or directions that catch her eye.
Stephanie Smee 37:19
Yes, and it and it prompted as well, those lovely reflections and memories of when she as a as a young girl had sort of hidden in the bushes, you know,
Nicole Abadee 37:29
With a boy,
Stephanie Smee 37:30
Yes, exactly. And, and tried to disappear from sight from her parents and so on. And that not only would she sort of get into trouble with with keepers of other animals who felt that their particular you know, exhibits weren't going to be appreciated because they would be directed past, on their way to see Oscar, but also would just remove any possibility of meandering through the zoo and and sort of remove the magic and mystery that that the zoo itself is meant to sort of represent.
Nicole Abadee 37:59
Steph one of the major things that I think we've touched on, but I wanted to talk a little bit more about now is this whole concept of human attempts to conquer nature to exert a mastery or supremacy over animals. And he shows that in a whole lot of different ways, he gives various examples of the cruelty of a zoo. And I mean, there's so many I was noting that as I went through, but right from the beginning, when animals were transported from Hamburg, to the Rome Zoo in 1910, many of them died in the journey. And in fact, he says, yes, he expects to lose 20% on the journey over. Another example of cruelty related to what you talked about that story of Fritz the bear, who's been taught to do the fascist salute, when the US soldiers arrive in Italy, and they meet Fritz, they're so amused by what he does that they make and keep doing it over and over and over again, and they keep giving him more and more and more sweets, until he collapses and dies. So there's a real underlying theme of this whole concept of keeping animals in captivity like this being cruel. The attempts by humans to really exert their supremacy, their mastery over animals. Would you like to talk a little bit about that thing?
Stephanie Smee 39:10
Yeah, look, I think it is a it is a constant theme of any book that is is looking at zoos, isn't it and the role where that humans play thinking that we are at the top of the the that particular pyramid and and how we make animals "the other" I guess, by confining them and I suppose trying to force them into this environment that that that suits us. There are it has to be understood, I suppose against the other work that the zoos do, which you know, the preservation of species and so on, and I and I think Janovjak deals with that as well. It's a funny, it's a place that is just so full of contrast, the zoo. On the one hand, I know, Janovjak himself has spoken about the significance of animals, and zoos as, as places of fable and, and, and mythology, that is sort of fundamental to, you know, our children's upbringing. And and it's, you know that the thing that we all learn how to make animal sounds and think that we are going to sort of understand them understand their world, and have access to them somehow. But it's always at this remove, he tells a wonderful story, in fact, when he took his very young boy to see the zoo, that he was trying to get him interested in the ducks that that were flapping around on the on the lake. And in fact, despite his best efforts, he could only get these, his son was just absolutely captivated by the information panel instead, and couldn't drag his eyes away from that to actually appreciate the the zoo. It is just I guess yet another example of of this attempt by humans, I think, to control our environment. And to make sense of it. And I think it is that absurdity that zoos, in fact, so perfectly represent that Janovjak struggles with, in fact, in at most stages of the zoo's history, because it is that trying to make sense of something that is ultimately, you know, incomprehensible in terms of the cruelty that that it imposes on animals in terms of, you know, how do we confine animals that are, you know, meant to be out in the wild? You know, in these ridiculous, you know, no matter how beautifully designed spaces that we we as humans seem seem to be, you know, perpetually fascinated by by exerting this sort of control, as a way of subduing our own anxiety about things, I guess, the unknown, and so on. We can give things a name, we can put them in a cage, we can observe them, it sort of allows us to make inventories of, of these animals existence, and and thereby, I guess, make them part of our own world, at the same time as keeping them quite distinct from our own human reality.
Nicole Abadee 42:38
It's definitely I'm going to finish with a couple of questions. Well, I guess it's no, it's a couple of questions about translating. Two double barreled questions, what do you find the most challenging aspect of your translation work? And what's the most rewarding?
Stephanie Smee 42:51
Every every book I open is, is a new challenge. The most obvious answer to that is that each book is about is different and so you are sort of thrust into a different world, a different voice, different characters. And it is that struggle to find the voice that is constant, in work as a translator, I think. Sure, you might come across vocabulary that is unfamiliar, and so on, and that can be looked up. But But really, the the skill is in finding in finding this sort of subtlety of the author's what they're trying to achieve in their language and hoping that its new Anglophone audience will be able to have the same response to the text if you've if you've done your your job properly. I think I think there is probably the most useful habit is is self doubt, just to be constantly checking yourself, checking the text, never making assumptions about what an author might be intending to do, and sort of relaxing your brain I guess, as you try and as you try and do that work. In terms of it what's most rewarding? I mean, I do I do passionately believe in the importance of translation as a as an act of empathy. I think, you know, only 3% of literature that we have on our shelves in the English speaking world is literature that's in translation, which is just such a tragic indictment. It is not the same in reverse I might add, the percentages are much higher of work that is coming from English into other languages
Nicole Abadee 42:54
is that in the English speaking world, generally are you speaking specifically in Australia?
Stephanie Smee 44:46
No, no, that's across across the English speaking world. And it's a figure that hasn't really shifted much.
Nicole Abadee 44:51
Why do you think that is Stephanie? Why is it 3%? I had no idea it was that low.
Stephanie Smee 44:56
I think there is a fundamental lack of interest honestly, in in what is going on in most other parts of the world, and that also feeds into what publishers decide, is worthy of being translated. And it's a cycle that feeds on itself, I think because then there is an assumption, well, you know, it will be risky if we translate this, we've only got so many number of books that we can publish on our list. And you know, we can't risk it, not it not doing well. It's obvious that prize winners will usually be translated and, and so on into English. But you know, that there will be translators from from far less popular languages than French or far less well known, I guess languages than French who will say, you know, that they don't even get a look in, in terms of the literature that we get access to. And yet, I don't actually know how we can hope to understand what, what motivates people, what drives people, I think it's, it's, there are two edges to this. On the on the one hand, it sort of emphasises our diversity as humans and, and that notion of being able to walk in somebody else's shoes and be able to understand, but I think, almost perhaps as important is this notion that it is a reminder of our common humanity. The fact that we are reading these stories from from from elsewhere and understanding what it is that drives us and and what moves us what affects us is in fact, universal, and not to have access to these stories feels somehow criminal. And I think in this day and age, not withstanding the plethora of information that we have at our disposal about any topic under the sun, it's sometimes feels that never have we been sort of further removed from, you know, our fellow citizens of the world in so many other other countries. And which is why I mean, I remember your your interview with George Saunders, you know about why it is we still read the Russians. You know what, and we're not reading the Russians, except courtesy, for most of us anyway, courtesy of the work of a translator but that is still considered to be a fundamental way in which we can examine sort of a range of human emotions and know the fact that they are, they are Russian short stories, which might not have much at all in common with with, you know, my life here and living in Sydney, Australia in you know, 2021. Still, they have something to offer us and I think that's the truly extraordinary thing about translating from a writer's point of view. But I do think it's very interesting the comments that people like Jhumpa Lahiri make Stephan Feik that, you know, who are writers and translators themselves, that really they say that the best way to improve one's writing is to translate. And I think it's that very close reading of a text that really often only translators do, because they have access to it. That you know, it teaches you about your own language, when you're grappling with, you know, the things that you that are going on in that other language and how to transfer them from one to the other. So maybe that's the thing maybe every author should actually be you know, it should be compulsory that they be a translator as well.
Nicole Abadee 48:32
You're a wonderful advocate for your profession. I can't think of a better description or explanation of why translation is so important. This is a magnificent book The Rome Zoo, I just recommend it wholeheartedly to everybody that's listening. Your translation is so deft I'm I haven't read the original in the French, but I'm absolutely convinced that you've caught all the nuances and the subtleties. Congratulations, thank you so much for bringing this wonderful book to the attention of English speaking audiences. Keep up the good work, keep doing what you're doing. And thank you so much for appearing today on books, books, books.
Stephanie Smee 49:10
Thank you so much for having me. It's been such a pleasure to talk to you a real privilege. Thank you.
Nicole Abadee 49:21
Thank you for listening to Books, Books, Books. If you liked what you heard in this episode, please go to my website, nicoleabadee.com.au. To listen to all the episodes and find out more about the podcast you can also find me Nicole Abadee on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter, and look for my reviews in Good Weekend. You can subscribe to Books, Books, Books at Apple podcasts, Spotify, Google and all the usual places. It would be lovely if you could go to any of these platforms and give a rating or review. Thank you. I look forward to talking books with you again soon.