Podcast Transcript
Kate Ellis “Sex, Lies and Question Time”
SPEAKERS
Nicole Abadee, Kate Ellis
Nicole Abadee
Hello, I'm Nicole Abadee and I write about books for good weekend. Welcome to the Books, Books, Books podcast in which I interview the best writers from Australia and overseas about their latest book. Thank you for joining me. Before we begin, I would like to acknowledge the country where I live and work and from where I'm joining this conversation, the lands of the Gadigal people of the Eora nation. I pay my respects to their elders past and present to the elders of all communities and cultures across Australia, and to leaders of the future. You can listen to this podcast all of the episodes at nicoleabadee.com.au or subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. Today I'm delighted to welcome format Labour MP Kate Ellis two books, books books to discuss her fabulous new book sex lies and question time, published by Heidi grant earlier this year. Kate Ellis represented Adelaide in the Australian House of Representatives for labor from 2004 until 2019. She served as Minister in multiple portfolios in the 2007 to 2013 federal Labour government. And in fact, in 2007, when Kevin Rudd appointed her as Minister for Youth and sport, she became Australia's youngest ever minister at the age of 30. She then spent time in Shadow Cabinet until she left Parliament at the 2019 federal election sec slides and Question Time is Kate's first book, Kate, welcome to books, books, books.
Kate Ellis
Thank you so much for having me. It's great to be with you,
Nicole Abadee
Katie, you were 27 when you were first elected to Parliament, and you spent 15 years there from 2004 to 2019. Had you always wanted to go into politics from when you were young,
Kate Ellis
I didn't really ever imagine myself as a member of parliament, even a year before I was elected. I had never honestly considered that as an option. I think I saw myself as someone interested in politics and who wanted to work to support Members of Parliament. But I probably hadn't really imagined that that was a possibility for me until it all came about very rapidly nd and there I found myself in Canberra.
Nicole Abadee
Kate, were there any women who had been politicians before you who you looked up to? Or who inspired you in your decision to go into politics?
Kate Ellis
I think I'm pretty lucky coming from South Australia. We have a real history when it comes to, I guess, being at the forefront of women in politics, whether that's, you know, the first to give women the vote, or have young women - obviously, it was a few years before me, Natasha Stott Despojer, was elected in South Australia - which you know I think that everyone who doesn't quite fit the mold and paves a bit of a path, makes it easier for the people that come after them. And there's no doubt that I would have benefited from that.
Nicole Abadee
After University went straight into politics, you worked or you volunteered for a number of Labour politicians. And then after you'd been a Labour staffer for a few years, somebody suggested you should run yourself. You did in 2004, and you were successful. On your first day in Parliament, a reporter asked you the following question, "Do you worry that you might suffer from the Natasha complex, the young, attractive, smart, savvy kind of girl coming to Parliament and being depicted as just that?" How did it feel to be asked that question on your first day in Parliament?
Kate Ellis
I think that that was just one example of many reminders that were given to me that it was unusual for me to be there. And I had so many of them. You know, they're examples from security guards telling me not to use the MPs entrance that the staff entrance is over there, to, to comm car drivers when I'd get in, they'd sit and wait and eventually say, "when's your boss getting here?" It was , it was a constant reminder to me, that I didn't fit the norm, and that it was differently being there. And I guess I just got used to that. I mean, I have no doubt that that had its own impact. But like my first radio interview, when I was first pre selected, I went into the studio, I was very excited and the announcer gave this very long introduction, saying, in one of the most extraordinary things he'd ever seen in federal politics, Labour had pre selected 26 year old unknown Kate Ellis for a winnable seat. And he then went on to list all of the things that I wasn't born for. He said "Kate wasn't born when the Whitlam government was dismissed. She wasn't born when a man landed on the moon. She wasn't born..." You know, he went on and on about how it was extraordinary because of my age, and I guess it just always reinforces, or to me it certainly reinforced, that I felt like I had to work harder, just to get to the same starting line to be accepted. That it wasn't the most ridiculous thing in the world that I might be in, in federal parliament is something I felt like I had to work really hard to establish where lots of people just go and get elected and, you know, it's just accepted that they should be there. You know, maybe some of that is me but I definitely felt that constantly.
Nicole Abadee
A few weeks after you had entered parliament, you're out at drinks, and a liberal staffer said to you, "the only thing anyone really wants to know about you Kate" -swear word, warning here - "is how many blokes you had to fuck to get into parliament?" Were you surprised to hear a comment like that?
Kate Ellis
I was really surprised, actually, in part because, and it was a social gathering that people were standing around having a joke and a laugh, it wasn't, we weren't debating, you know, our politics, we weren't getting into policy discussions. I was having a nice time with some Liberal staffers when he sort of came in. And it was jarring to me, not just what he said. But the fact that you'd think that that's something you'd say in a social setting, and surrounded by other people. It, it did surprise me, but I remembered this kind of laughing thinking, this bloke doesn't seem like very much fun. And like he was really quite aggressive and super confident in even putting that forward. But, you know, I think I just, I think in politics, you get used pretty quickly to people having all sorts of criticisms of you, people finding any weakness any way to bring you down. And I did kind of think "oh well at least this guy's, saying it to my face." There's something in that, because there's no doubt there would have been many, many more people saying horrible things behind my back. But yeah, it was, it was a pretty jarring moment.
Nicole Abadee
How did you handle that? Did you talk to other women about these sorts of comments and this sort of behaviour? Or did you keep it to yourself?
Kate Ellis
And it was funny, because I actually went inside, and there was some Labour MPs in there and I told them what happened and Tony Burke was one of them. He was also just elected at the 2004 election and he was quite shocked, and was like, I'm gonna go out there and speak to him and I had to kind of say, "No, no, no, let's just let that one slide." Because the people were pretty surprised about it. But you know, I just moved on. It's not something I really dwelled on. It was only when I was writing this book, that you kind of put together a whole lot of experiences that on their own hadn't seem like that much but when you put them all together, you go, oh, there absolutely is a pattern of disrespect to you. And that's something that it really didn't become apparent to me because I was busy focused on other things until I stopped when I left parliament, and I guess, looked at the whole picture.
Nicole Abadee
When you're in politics, you say in your book that you routinely refused invitations to talk about what it was like to be a woman in politics, because you thought what you were there for was to do your job to focus on the people who had elected you. Did you ever think that when you left politics, you might write a book about your experiences giving you an insider's perspective?
Kate Ellis
No, I didn't. In fact, I never thought this book would come about and when I was first approached by my publisher, when summers that Heidi grant when I announced that I wasn't running, and one of my assistants politely go back and say, Yeah, thanks. But no thanks. Caitlin says she doesn't have anything more to say. And then she approached me again. And I was like, Yeah, no, I don't think so. And it was only because she was so persistent that once I'd then left politics, and I started thinking, there was no way I was ever going to write a book about myself. I just thought, you know, that's something you do if you're a former prime minister, maybe, but I just wouldn't feel comfortable doing that. But then when I stopped and thought, maybe there is a story, a broader story about women's experiences across the board. And I thought, well, I'm probably well placed to try and capture those stories because I have relationships with all of those women that maybe they'll sit down and talk to me. And maybe we can have something that's a bit unique, like a really honest insight into what it's like to be a woman in Parliament. And then I thought, well, maybe I could do that. And yeah and here we are.
Nicole Abadee
You spoke to women across the political spectrum about the issues that women faced in, in Parliament. Who were some of the people that you spoke to, and were they keen to share their experiences?
Kate Ellis
Well, I spoke to 16 different women. So the first interview I did, and just the way it turned out was with Pauline Hanson, who I'd never had a conversation with before and I was quite, I don't know, that terrified is the right word, but I do, didn't really know how that was going to go. And so I started with Pauline Hanson, but spoke to Sarah Hansen Young Julia Gillard Julie Bishop, and a number of sitting MPs from Tanya Plibersek, Penny Wong, Karen Andrews, Susan Ley. And there was a real variety in how open people were some people were really ready to share their story. Sometimes it felt like a bit of a therapy session that we were both in sitting, sharing our experiences and because it's something that, in my experience we didn't really talk about in the parliament. And then some of them were more guarded, there was definitely, particularly government ministers who are serving government Ministers, seemed a lot more guarded when I interviewed them. Then, of course, by the time the book came out, the whole landscape had changed, the focus on women in Parliament House had changed so much that a lot of them are speaking a lot more openly.
Nicole Abadee
Now, that's something that you talk about in the book, you say that you felt like you were breaking some unspoken code of not acknowledging the sexist and unfair treatment of women. Tell us about that code.
Kate Ellis
Well I just think like, more than anything, when it comes to politics, almost more than anything, I want to see more women in Parliament. And I also, you know, I haven't written this book, because I'm bitter. I absolutely loved my experience as a member of parliament, it's such a privilege that I will always be grateful for. So I think people are a bit torn. And you don't want to discourage other women and young women from thinking about it as a possible career option. So you don't really want to give light to, I guess, the more negative sides of the job or the experience. And, you know, as I think I said in the book, it's, it's a bit like that old thing that you don't tell women about childbirth, the realities of childbirth, until they've had children themselves. And then women love sharing the gory details of their, of their birth. I think it's a similar thing, that there's this kind of unspoken code that you don't talk about the bad things about being a woman in politics. And so I was really torn about that. And it's probably the thing that I was most torn about. The entire time I was writing the book, I was really trying to keep a balance.
Nicole Abadee
So what got you over the line? You said in the book, you really - I imagine this is this is the aim of the book - you say "I want it to be called out and I want it to stop" what got you over the line, I can see the hesitancy that you might have had about not wanting to put other young women off from a career in politics. What was it that tipped you over the line and persuaded you that writing this book would be a good thing?
Kate Ellis
I think it's having a bit of space being out of politics and I guess engaging with normal Australia. I had a broader perspective. And it struck me that I hadn't realised at the time, how far behind the culture is in in federal politics when it comes to women. And once I was out and I had a chance to reflect on some of my experiences, I realised that there's some quite shocking things that happen and I'd just seen as a matter of course. And so once I was out, I realised, that's actually really not okay. And it's not changing, or it's not changing quickly enough. And it's not going to change unless someone actually calls it out more broadly. So I think it's, I think if I was still in Parliament, I probably wouldn't realise just how far behind the rest of Australia the culture of Australian politics can be.
Nicole Abadee
You talk about this, about the fact that in, in Parliament House, it's like this bad behaviour is is almost normalized, and that it's not until you left and you've got a perspective that you realise that it wasn't. After the 2019 election, 30% of the seats in the House of Representatives were held by women. More disturbingly, in 2017, you refer to a survey of young women aged 18 to 25 that showed that 0% of them would consider entering politics. Why do you think that is? Why is that figure so bad? The last one particularly?
Kate Ellis
Well, I think we've seen a series. I mean, first of all, we saw Julia Gillard's experience as Australia's first female Prime Minister. And I think people saw how harsh it can be, how unfair it can be, and how different women can be treated there. But we've also had some really high profile cases in the last few years. Sarah Hansen Young actually having a court case about being, as she termed it, slut shamed in the federal parliament, Emma Husar going on national television, saying that that ended her career, I think the genie was let out of the bottle a little bit and these practices that had probably gone on for as long as there's been women in our parliament, and became a bit more public and impacted people's views of them. So my only hope is that, you know, looking at those survey results, and young women saying they just wouldn't even consider a career in politics, I mean, I'm an optimist but I do feel like the events of the last year, have changed it a bit from "That's horrible. And I don't want to go in there" to "It's horrible and I need to go in there." I think that there are women who are more determined and realise that we actually really need women to step up to the plate.
Nicole Abadee
You make the point in your book, as you just have, that in the private sector, there have been huge advances, probably not enough or not enough in terms of equality, gender equality, but the culture in Parliament is peculiarly and very aggressively male. You described as an outdated, toxic and often unfair environment, why do you think the culture is so toxic and so male in Parliament when things have improved in other workplaces?
Kate Ellis
I think there's many reasons for that. I think one is just the way that our parliament was established the rules of how it's played, what's rewarded, what's seen as success, are all very, it's kind of, it is a very aggressive environment. But I think it's also the the type of people that politics often attracts are attracted to power you know, and like to use that power, often there's a sense of entitlement. So when you put gender politics in with those traits, you can see how that can become quite dangerous. But I think the other thing is that the private sector has been forced to make change. And, you know, as a matter, of course, we'll do training for their staff on respect, on bullying, on appropriate workplace behaviours. Parliament hasn't done any of that. And in terms of professional development, or training, I think a lot of people feel like, "I've been elected by the Australian community, therefore, I'm untouchable. And I can do what I like."
Nicole Abadee
Is that partly do you think? just because of those statistics that only, for example, 30% of the seats in the House of Reps are held by women. Is it? Is it the fact that there hasn't been a critical mass of women to agitate for these changes?
Kate Ellis
I think that's a large part of it. I do think that an increased number of women in the parliament changes the culture and changes that pretty quickly, which is something I got to see firsthand during my 15 years there. So that's a part of it. But I think it's broader than that I I'm probably becoming more radical in my thinking on this as time goes on, because I think there is a problem, which we're seeing played out now, where MPs can behave badly can be caught behaving badly, but they may be in a marginal seat, and they may hold a vote that the government desperately needs. So there aren't consequences. And there's certainly not a zero tolerance approach to it. And people turn a blind eye because it's all about numbers on the floor. And that's unhealthy.
Nicole Abadee
You also talk about the double standards that are applied to men and women. Could you give us some examples of those,
Kate Ellis
I think there's a huge amount of double standards when it comes to personal lives. For example, women routinely, sexual allegations or gossip about their personal lives is used as a way to undermine their credibility. Whereas I think a blind eye is largely turned to men and what they might actually be doing. And but also, just Parenthood is a huge, you know, we see all the time and we still see it constantly, but if a woman is elevated to a senior position, it will be publicly asked, "Well, how can she do this when she's got young children who's looking after the kids?" Those questions are never asked of men in our Parliament at all. And, you know, so there's a lot of judgments that are placed on women and the decisions that they make that aren't placed on men. But I think the other one that is really obvious is the focus on physical appearance of women. And that's seen as fair game in discussion, debate and critique of that woman's suitability to be in Parliament in a way that just isn't the same for men.
Nicole Abadee
Let's talk about that for a moment. When you were first pre selected. A labour colleague gave you some advice about your appearance. What was that?
Kate Ellis
Well I was, I was told I should cut my hair, I was told I should wear more sensible shoes. It was recommended to me a clothing salon on that I might like to visit which is a salon on here in Adelaide, which I would say is really catered for the older woman,
Nicole Abadee
You were 27 at the time.
Kate Ellis
Yeah, well, I was 26 when I got this advice when I was first the candidate, and but it got to the point of did I need glasses? I said, "No, I've got perfect vision" and it was suggested, maybe I get some glasses just with straight glass. And it was really clear that it was about trying to make me fit some sort of mold of what was appropriate for a female member of parliament to look like or make me less feminine, or certainly make me not look so young. And I found it really confronting because it was already confronting, you know, putting your hand up publicly for a marginal seat, in my case, the capital city seat. And to do that, whilst also trying to pretend to be something you're not or cover up who you are or what your age was, it just would, just would have been too hard. But I found it really confusing. I was like, "why would you pre select me if you want someone completely different? Because I can't be authentic in talking to my community trying to make connections if I'm also trying desperately to pretend that I'm somebody that I'm not."
Nicole Abadee
Something I thought was very interesting is that you say in the book when you interviewed these 16 women MPs, this was the single biggest issue that they mentioned. And you make the point that women can't win. If they do dress well, they're shallow or vacuous or show ponies and if they don't, they're criticized. Why do you think there is this obsession in the media, particularly with the appearance of women politicians?
Kate Ellis
The only thing I can think is that we're still seen as a bit of a novelty and meaning our Parliament's have largely looked the same since Federation, they've largely been middle aged white men in gray suits. And so there's nothing really to focus on there. Whereas women are a bit of a novelty, that, you know, they've got long hair, they've got short hair, she's got high heels, she's got flats, she wears skirts, she doesn't, she wears bright colors, or big earrings, or I think it's just been seen as something a bit different. And particularly for the media, when they're desperately looking for a way to make politics interesting to the broader community, I can see how they've kind of latched on to that at times. So I definitely think that the more women in our Parliament, the less the focus will be on that. And I've also seen that, in my time, I remember in my last last couple of terms in the parliament, I'd see women confidently stride into the chamber, in outfits that I was like, "Oh, my God, if I'd worn that, and 10 years ago, it would have been big national news." But it is changing and it's becoming more flexible and I think that's a really good thing.
Nicole Abadee
There was a study done in the US that you talk about, in 2013, called "Name it, change it. Could you tell us a bit about that study,
you're like, I think it's really interesting that what the study showed is that there is much more of a focus on women's personal appearances than men's. But even more devastatingly, it showed that every time there was a focus on a female politicians appearance, whether it was positive or negative, and her electability went down - less credible, less electable. Every time there was a focus on their appearance, which also shows that women just can't win. Yeah, which is, which is tricky because it means that every time that the media is focusing on your outfits, your body shape, whatever it may be, they're not focusing on your experience, your policies, your ideas, and what it is that you hope to do for your local community. So it means that there's a further obstacle that women in politics face in trying to get their message out to voters.
Nicole Abadee
Let's talk now about something that you devoted chapter two to, I'm sure you probably could have devoted a whole book to and that is slut shaming. So in July 2018, just to pick one particular example, Greens Senator Sarah Hansen Young called out then Senator David Leyonhjelm, for his behaviour towards her in Parliament. You spoke to Sarah about this at some length. Could you describe it, most of us saw the final point of that comment that he made and what we saw her walk across the chamber to him. But in the book, you explained that this was the culmination of six to 12 months of bad behaviour. Could you describe the behaviour that she'd been subjected to over that period?
Kate Ellis
Yeah, it was. It was one, one of the most interesting moments of the interviews that I did was when I was talking to Sarah and I'd thought that she'd just decided to stand up for herself and to call out a bloke who was behaving badly. What I hadn't realised is that this behaviour had been going on not just for weeks, but for months, every time she stood up in the parliament, she had men opposite, who were shouting out the names of men that she was alleged to have slept with, or shouting out things that she was alleged to have done with them, or places she was alleged to have been caught in sexual activities. So and Sarah explained to me that it started really impacting her, it was impacting on her ability to want to stand up and ask questions, even when they were pressing questions to be asked in her portfolio.
Nicole Abadee
And that is the most noxious part of it, isn't it? That this behaviour actually came to the point of of impacting adversely on how she did her job?
Kate Ellis
Well, and it was worse than that it got to the point where she didn't want to go to question time, and she wouldn't turn up or she would leave early to the point that senators on the other side of politics to her notice this. So it was clearly something that, you know, while a lot of us saw Sarah standing up and calling him out as a sign of strength, it was that but it was also a sheer sign of desperation, as she explained it, she just could not allow this behaviour to go on and had to try doing something about it. And, you know, I can't imagine too many workplaces in Australia, where women go to work every day, and publicly have that sort of abuse thrown at them over and over again, without anyone calling it out, without anyone stepping in to protect them, without anyone making it stop and have to make a call. Do I make this public and a national story that will be debated? That's pretty embarrassing in itself? Or do I continue just sitting by and letting it go on? That's, that's a pretty hard place to be. And so it was interesting hearing, to hear his account of that.
Nicole Abadee
And she she, of course, did call it out? Well, what he did, as I understand it, was he called out, "why don't you stop shagging men?" As she was asking a question in Parliament, she went up to him, she asked him what he said, he was rude to her and then he was foolish enough to repeat those statements in the media, and she sued him successfully in defamation proceedings. Do you think that's a way forward? For women or men? It's terrible that it has had to come to that but do you think that that is one way to stop this behaviour? For for women to take action in that way to assert their rights and protect their reputations?
Kate Ellis
I think that publicly calling it out is essential to bringing about change. But one of the things that I hope would happen, and one of the reasons I wanted to write the book is to try and get a recognition that it can't just be that woman who has to stand up and call it out. And the people around, the other senators and her colleagues or her political opponents, you know, all have a responsibility to actually stand up and call it out. And we should not leave it to, for lack of a better word, the victim to be the one that has to make these calls and put themselves in the spotlight. And it's one of the things I'm really pleased about that I've been surprised, that I've had some male MPs who have contacted me since the book came out, saying things like, "I've seen some behaviour go on, that it's made me feel uncomfortable but now I know that, I'm actually going to have a talk to the people that are doing that and see if I can stop it." And that's a brilliant thing, because that's what we need. It should not be just up to that one woman to try and change the situation.
Nicole Abadee
Kate, you of course, had your own pretty horrendous experience of this slut shaming, would you like to tell us about what happened to you?
Kate Ellis
I well I had many. I guess, people have to pick something to undermine your credibility. And in my case, if you're 27 or 30, when I became a minister, you know, not married, one way that seemed popular was to make up sexual rumours about me. And it got to the point that they were so widely spread that I've had journalists this year say to me, "I heard that and I heard it so often that I just assumed it was true." So with me it was that I was sleeping with my colleagues, that I was sleeping with when I was Sports Minister. There was rumours about senior sports administrators that only liked me because I was sleeping with them. And, and there were rumours about me and staff. I'm sure there were others but that's just to name a few. But the one that got really out of hand was those mad rumour that I had a young female chief of staff who was brilliant, talented, great at her job, also young and attractive, and there was this rumour that her and I were both sleeping with one of the male advisors in the office. And it became so far fetched that then the rumour said that when we both discovered what each other was up to, we sat him down and gave him an ultimatum that he had to choose one. Basically, the rumour went that we sat and begged pick me pick me. And, you know, just ridiculous. So the story was that my office was clearly so dysfunctional, because there was this sort of love triangle going on in it that the Prime Minister didn't know what to do, and it was destabilising the government. So it got to the point where I found out that there was going to be a newspaper article that was going to go out in all of the News Ltd Sunday newspapers across the country, about, you know, these allegations about what I'd been up to. And I was a new minister, like people of Australia didn't know me outside my electorate. So I knew if that article went ahead, that would be what people form their opinions on. And even if, you know, it was said it was just a rumour, even if later people came out and acknowledged that it wasn't true. I still to this day, believe that that would have been Korea ending for me.
Nicole Abadee
That is almost the most frightening thing that you you believed and, you know, was a rational belief at the time, that that would be, that would be the end of your career. A baseless, completely baseless rumour of that nature, would would be the end of your political career. I think that was one of the things I found the most disturbing in the whole book, tell us how it, how you dealt with it?
Kate Ellis
Oh, well, um, I was lucky in that the journalist never came to me. But I got a tip off from someone who had been contacted and when working on this story, who let me know that it was coming. So I madly just did everything I could to try and stop the publication of it. And I was really lucky that I went to the Prime Minister's office and convinced his senior staff that this would be devastating for me, that it was really unfair and that we needed to stop it. So they went to work as well and got in touch with editors and worked to kill off this story, which, luckily, we did kill it off. But the deal was that I would need to personally speak to one of the newspaper editors, to assure him that there was no truth in this. And it just, particularly in hindsight, I think back now on being a Federal Minister of Australia, on the phone to a newspaper editor I've never met before, and pleading with him. And you know, as I think I said in the book, I still cringe when I can hear my voice saying to him, "honestly, I've never even kissed him." Like, how ridiculous is that? That is, it's like high school. It's not like any sort of modern workplace and certainly not what, you know, the Federal Parliament that's meant to be setting the standards, should be focused on and women should be having to deal with when we're trying to do our jobs. But I dodged a bullet not everyone has.
Nicole Abadee
Let's talk now about social media. Men and women, both of them in public life, are all faced with social media trolling. But why is it that it's so much worse and so much more toxic for women?
Kate Ellis
Well, I think all of the evidence and, and the academic research has shown that women do regularly receive much higher levels of abuse and threats on social media than men generally. But I think when you add to that, in politics, you know, half the community doesn't like you before you even open your mouth, and they don't like what you stand for. They don't want you to win, they don't want you to be successful. And so what that means is on social media, for women, you know, there is a vicious sort of feedback that you get each and every day. And, you know, from women I spoke to, it's not uncommon for that to include threats of violence, threats of rape, you know, critique about your body what you look like, and, and, and just really harsh personal feedback, which, I mean, the reason that this is such a problem is the most senior women that I spoke to, and and particularly Julia, Gillard, and Penny Wong both said to me, they were so lucky that when they were starting out, they weren't subjected to that sort of feedback.
Nicole Abadee
But they were both saying social social media wasn't as advanced then.
Yeah, that's right. So social media wasn't as advanced then but they both said, what sort of impact would that have on the confidence of the women who are just trying to find their feet, just trying to settle into their jobs. And anytime that you do anything publicly, you get this sort of level of abuse in threats. And it would have an impact. And it's a disproportionate impact that women in politics are bearing than men. And one of the examples I gave was a story Amanda Rishworth, told where she was sitting in Parliament and a male colleague said, "Oh, my God, I've just been called a hypocrite on social media." And she said, "mate" and kind of opened up her phone. And I think there was one that said, you know, "you're just like that redheaded slut," or something, that he, there was just no awareness from him that this is something we deal with all the time.
Nicole Abadee
So how do you deal with it? How do you handle it? Do you talk to each other about it? Do you laugh it off?
Kate Ellis
I think that there's a number of different approaches. Some women have said, they've just got off social media, they let their staff deal with the feedback and they might send some messages out. But the flip side of that is as a politician, part of your job is receiving feedback from the community. And sometimes it's really constructive. Sometimes, there's really valid points about the policy you're you're advocating or about the debate at the time. So it's hard to just say you're going to step out of that space but I think it's also about awareness, you need to realise that those voices aren't necessarily at all reflective of the broader community, and which was my experience, I think I told the story that I used to take it to heart, but I used to think, "Oh, yes, they're right, I have to do better, I have to work harder, I have to win them over." And I had this lightbulb moment that sounds so ridiculous. But I was going through feedback after I'd been on q&a and somebody had written "Oh that Kate Ellis, she just sits there with all her Botox and her hair extensions..." And, you know, if they'd been saying "she's a stupid bimbo, she's embarrassing," then i might go,"maybe they've got a point." But because it was so black and white, that I know full well that I don't have Botox or hair extensions, there was this moment where I just realised, ah, they just make up stuff to try and be mean. And it sounds crazy that you have to have that example but I think that maybe women, more than men, have a tendency to kind of dismiss positive criticism and take the negative criticism to heart and dwell on it and believe it, and I certainly suffered from that. And that moment, just set me free.
Nicole Abadee
I was just going to say, I think that you connect that in your book to the imposter syndrome that women seem to suffer disproportionately from men. That it reinforces your own belief that you're not good enough.
Kate Ellis
Yeah. So I mean, I think that we don't really have an answer to the question about social media, it is something that we're going to have to work out how, people in public life in particular, deal with and how women in politics deal with because it is disproportionately impacting them. And it can also be really dangerous that we also know that violence online can lead to real life violence, or at least the threats of. So if that impacts on the way you do your job, can you go down to the local park and tell all the residents that they can come and have a face to face conversation? How do you feel confident doing that? If everyday, you're receiving violent threats online and you don't know who they're from? There are still unanswered questions about social media that I think we really need to focus on.
Nicole Abadee
I'd like to talk now about Julia Gillard. You spend some time I think, a chapter in your book and talking about her experience as Australia's first female Prime Minister and I know that you spoke to her. There was, as you say, a tremendous focus on her appearance, and there was just so much hatred so much. And suddenly, it seemed that she became a lightning rod for the very worst kind of sexist behaviour from Australian politicians, media, and the community. You ask yourself in this book, and you say that many of your female colleagues have asked themselves, should you have done more, either to be calling out sexist misogynistic behaviour earlier, before she became Prime Minister? Or then when she actually was Prime Minister? Should you have been calling it out more? Or should you have been jumping to her defence more? At the time you say that what you believe was the best way to deal with sexist behaviour, and misogynist behaviour was just to, to work hard and to do a good job. And that was the approach that Julia took as well. In hindsight, what do you think about that approach? Do you think now that, do you and your female colleagues think that you, you could or perhaps should have, done more to call out the dreadful conduct that was directed at Julia Gillard?
Kate Ellis
Yeah, I definitely think that. I think Australia needed to do more to call it out. And it was hard. It was hard for Julia because she wanted to be focusing on her policy achievements. It was had for us because we didn't want to be taking attention away from the government's agenda. And also because, you know, every time she or any of us stood up, we were accused of playing the gender card and we were labeled as the handbag hit squad because, you know, many of us would stand up and try and call it out. And I think that what we've learned is that we, we actually, I think, have an increased awareness now of what Julia was dealing with, and what women in public life have been dealing with. The only way is, when a business leader's standing up and calling it out, we need our media organisations, actually, not just calling it out, but ensuring there are consequences for for people who are engaging in that sort of sexist attack. You know, we need community leaders, we need politicians from across the aisle, actually saying this isn't okay and we're going to set a higher standard. And I think one of the problems we had when Julia was Prime Minister was, I think a lot of us were actually shocked by the level of misogyny, it was brutal, and it was constant and it was multifaceted. You know, it was coming from different levels from, you know, in the parliament, in the media, but also in the community in in like, you know, those awful online hate that was spewing up. So I think a lot of us were, were caught off guard that we just didn't realise that there was that level within Australia. And now we're more aware, and I think a lot of people have reflected upon it. And I think a lot of people from all sides of politics have reflected upon it. I did have an interesting thought, a few weeks ago. I mean, obviously we've seen and one of my former South Australian colleagues, the member for Boothby, Nicolle Flint has said she won't run it the next election. And she's called out the level of sexism towards women in politics. They went back and noted that before she was elected, she was writing newspaper columns about Julia Gillard's handbag hit squad and I do wonder whether, you know, people's views have moved and people's awareness of what's going on. They're much more advanced now than they were when Julia was Prime Minister.
Nicole Abadee
You also make the point in in your book that the way that it was done, what what would seem to be particularly evil about it in a lot of cases was that Tony Abbott got his women ministers. Sorry, Tony Abbott got the women politicians to be the most critical of Julia Gillard as another woman and that seemed to me to be a particularly toxic tactic.
Kate Ellis
Yeah. Well, it changed the dynamics of the Parliament as well, that I think a lot of women outside politics say, if it's so bad for the women in there, why can't they all just get together and call on it to stop? But actually, what's happening is women's relationships with women have gotten worse. And certainly during the Tony Abbott Julia Gillard days, where it was women who were standing up and asking the questions, you know, about Julia's boyfriend from 20 years earlier, and her personal life, you know, the stuff that I think Tony Abbott was probably concerned he'd look like a bully if he was asking. And there was one after another women standing up asking these questions. And it set a bit of a precedent and a tone that I think, that still continues, that if there is a female minister who's in trouble or on the ropes, it's more likely than not that it will be a female asking the hard questions of it. Which, you know, does terrible things for the dynamics between women in the parliament as well.
Nicole Abadee
Kate, one of my favourite chapters in the book, the most optimistic one is entitled, "Is it worth it?" What's the answer?
Kate Ellis
I don't think there's any doubt in the world that it's worth it. It really is the most remarkable privilege to get to not just serve your community but play a role in improving our country. And there's no way you can bring about more change, than, well, I think I said in the book, other than maybe finding a cure for cancer, that in terms of the number of people you can help, the number of lives you can improve. It is a remarkable opportunity that is so incredibly rewarding. So yeah, it was important to me to try and not just expose the bad bits but recognise the other part of the story we don't talk about, is why it's so good. That why it's something that people should consider and I absolutely passionately believe that it's the best job that I'll ever have in my life. So it was it was good to try and tell that side as well.
Nicole Abadee
And almost all I think, maybe all of the other women, that you interviewed felt the same way, didn't they?
Kate Ellis
Absolutely. So I think Emma Husar was the only one who had some questions over whether she'd advise others to do it and, but every other woman said without hesitation, that, you know, if people know what they're in for, if people know what they're going into, and they're passionate about it, like it's not a job for everyone. But if you're passionate about it, and if you believe you've got a contribution to make, then absolutely go for it and know that, you know, I hope that it will become easier and easier for women, in part because you don't have to navigate this path that's never been walked down before you can actually see what obstacles you're likely to encounter. And you can also learn from the women that have gone before you or the women that are there. Now, I think there's more of a support network. There's more advice. And and yeah, I hope it will continue to be easier.
Nicole Abadee
On that note, let's talk now finally, about Brittany Higgins and the the rape allegations that she made earlier this year. Were you surprised by those allegations?
Kate Ellis
I don't know the answer to this question to be honest. I know that it's a yes or no question. I mean, I was, I was shocked and I was horrified by the allegations. If you look at the culture in Parliament House and the level of disrespect for women and the power imbalances, and - can I see how it is feasible that that had that that happened to her? Yes. Do I imagine it's probably happened to other people? Yes. But the thing that I was really shocked about to be honest is, but I, what I still can't get my head around is that even if that happens in, you know, in Parliament House, in the ministerial wing, just metres away from the Prime Minister's Office, what I can't get my head around, is how in any organisation, someone can hear such an allegation, and not take it to the boss. Or like, I just can't see how, you know, any director of any company...you'd have, you'd have a board meeting, "are there any other issues we need to discuss," you would raise an allegation of that serious nature. So I cannot understand how a cabinet minister cannot raise that with the Prime Minister and then not immediately act upon it. I just can't understand how there could be anything more important happening. And then that particular allegation, so I'm horrified to hear Brittany Higgins allegations. But I'm also more so deeply sorry for the way that she was treated since and is continuing to be treated. She, She is an absolute, you know, warrior when it comes to standing up, calling things out and demanding change. But it's it shouldn't, something like this shouldn't have to fall on the shoulders of someone so young
Nicole Abadee
Kate, you were recently interviewed by the Sex Discrimination Commissioner, Kate Jenkins, for the independent review into parliamentary workplaces, which was called in response in part to the Brittany Higgins allegations, as well as two other allegations. Do you believe that that review is capable of bringing about change in the culture in Parliament?
Kate Ellis
I am. I got such confidence from my discussions with Kate Jenkins and the team that she has working on the independent panel, that I think they were asking all the right questions, I think they're looking at all the right areas and I'm really optimistic about the quality of the report and the recommendations that they'll put forward to change the culture of Parliament House. But in terms of do I think this is going to lead to change, I think there's one really simple reality, and that is, if the government or any government really wants to bring about change and ensure their Parliament House is a more equal place, they will adopt some sort of structure to ensure greater representation of women within their party and within the parliament. So we can have as many recommendations as we like, we can have as many inquiries, but if in this case, the government is serious and wants to bring about change, then they need to find a mechanism - targets, quotas, whatever they want to call it - and actually bring about change and have more women in the parliament. And if they, if they're not going to do that, then I just don't believe that they're taking this seriously because we know that is the most effective way to bring about cultural change, is actually bringing about gender equality in the representation in the building. And so I'm optimistic but I'm also waiting to see whether the government is all talk.
Nicole Abadee
Okay, thank you so much for talking to me today, the word timely doesn't begin to describe your book. It's a very, very important book for all of us to talk about and to be considering at this time. I wish you all the very best with promoting it and thank you so much for appearing on Books, Books, Books.
Kate Ellis
Well, thank you so much for reading it and for talking to me. It's been great.
Nicole Abadee
Thank you for listening to Books, Books Books. If you liked what you heard in this episode, please go to my website, because nicoleabadee.com.au to listen to all the episodes and find out more about the podcast. You can also find me Nicole Abadee on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter and look for my reviews in Good Weekend. You can subscribe to Books, Books, Books at Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google and all the usual places. It would be lovely if you could go to any of these platforms and post a rating or review. Thank you. I look forward to talking books with you again soon.